Month: February 2017

Chapter 26: Jail Break! (Vox)

Aside: it took me way too long to realize what people were talking about when they were looking for Vox spoilers. I had never heard of this character named Vox.

Time to analyze the math behind Veteran Ox! I have not put him on the table yet, but I can still do the math.

First, since he’s a Butcher, let’s look at his damage. He averages about 1.8 damage per swing, or 3 damage on a charge. That makes his output for his 3 influence he does 5.4 damage with 3 attacks, or 6.6 damage with a charge and an attack against a male. Against a female on the charge he does 4.8 damage total. If he kills a model and activates Owner, that adds one damage per attack that he makes. Even against the low defense models, his playbook is long enough that he’s not wrapping to add extra damage. The most direct comparison damage wise is Shank, which is fitting because he also has two inch melee. They do the same damage on an attack, and Ox does a little more on the charge. He also does the exact some amount of damage as Boiler without assist or any other buff. Overall, that’s not a great amount of damage. I’ve never liked the damage Shank, or un-buffed Boiler, have done in the past. Butcher’s need to be doing absolutely as much damage as possible to kill models before they get killed themselves. They just aren’t resilient enough for a slow grind. New Ox really wants to be saved for finishing off a target to give his owner bonus to the rest of the team. Here is a complete table of expected damage values:

Defense
Attack Damage
Charge Damage
2/03.185.31
2/1,3/02.614.45
2/2,3/1,4/02.073.49
2/3,3/2,4/1,5/01.492.47
Weighted Average:1.792.99

Ox produces .6 momentum on an attack and .9 on a charge. He can expect to produce 1.8 for his three attacks, 2.1 momentum for charging a male and doing two attack, and 1.5 momentum for charging a female and then attacking. I haven’t gone back to do the momentum math for the other Butchers, but not having a momentous damage result until 3 successes really hurts his momentum generation, most of the other butchers have momentous damage right away. I would think that this makes them WAY better at generating momentum, especially against higher defense models. Here is the full table for momentum generation:

Defense
Attack
Charge
2/01.001.43
2/1,3/00.971.10
2/2,3/1,4/00.820.99
2/3,3/2,4/1,5/00.490.86
Weighted Average:0.640.93

Veteran Ox has a lot of interesting abilities and traits. I like that anyone damaging him takes an automatic damage. Vindictive [Male] is really good. I’m a little worried about him in the middle of a scrum like most of his abilities want him to be. With stuck in he’s not losing dice being in the middle of the fight, but the enemy is still getting all those gang ups from attacking him. He heals off of the people around him as well, but only at the end of his activation. Wasting an attack to activate stuck in when he could be doing damage also seems like a waste unless he’s already in the middle of several opposing players, then it might be essential to do anything. But he’s probably just going to die in that situation. I thought it would be nice if he could charge (preferably a male) to get Whirling Chains and wrap to also get Stuck In. That would give 2 momentum and get rid of the Crowding out penalties he would make himself suffer by doing the Whirling Chains. If it was a male, he can then take two more attack against a model. Honestly, I don’t think this is a very good plan, unless your goal is just to engage a lot of models and you are comfortable with Ox dying shortly, but it allowed me to do some more math for a situation that isn’t the worst thing that could happen. On average for all players it only has a 15% chance of success, but the lower defense models (ones that defense and armor add to 2 or 3) have a much better chance, 66% (2/3) against the defense “3” models. Here is the complete table:

Defense/Armor
Chance on Charge
2/090.44%
2/1,3/065.76%
2/2,3/1,4/021.64%
2/3,3/2,4/1,5/03.29%
Weighted Average:14.96%

The last thing I want to talk about is just the chance of him getting Whirling Chain off. It does help get models out of the way and engaged by him. It’s a choice you can do instead of doing damage, and it’s momentous. His first knock down is in the same column, so the percent chances of getting KD are the same as Whirling Chain. Overall his average chance to get Whirling Chain is about 40% on an attack and 80% on a charge. Here is the full table of chances of getting it against the different defenses:

Defense/Armor
Chance on Charge
2/090.44%
2/1,3/065.76%
2/2,3/1,4/021.64%
2/3,3/2,4/1,5/03.29%
Weighted Average:14.96%

I am going to try replacing Shank with Veteran Ox in Fillet lists. He’s not quite as mobile as Shank but has similar output (and a different role). He also has that owner buff that’s nice when it’s triggered. Hopefully that will also let me forget about how Shank used to be and he won’t seem such a disappointment now.

Chapter 25: Pour one out for my homie, Spigot

Aw, Spigot, what a guy. Some people get hot and bothered about Flint (Phil), but Spigot is the model I think about as being the epitome of Guild Ball. He can fight, he can score, he can do it all.

Having 4/7″ kick is pretty fantastic for a model that isn’t a dedicated striker. He’s pretty average for speed at 5″/8″ (fast for a Brewer), but with his heroic he gets an extra 2 inches of movement making him striker speed. He gives the same bonus to all his friends in the Brewers within 4″ as well, making up for their slow speed. He has a 17″ threat on goal and should get the goal most times with 4 dice. That’s actually great considering that making a goal isn’t even what he’s good at. ON top of all that he has a momentous tackle on one hit, which means even against he highest defense models he is very likely to get the tackle (87% against defense 5, armor 0). He also has ball’s gone if he wants to strip the ball and kick it away. The ball’s gone is on column 2, so not as likely as the tackle, but still pretty likely. Here is the complete table for the chance of getting balls gone (the charge chance is the chance that he gets ball’s gone after wrapping, since the chance of just getting it at all was so high):

Defense/Armor
Chance on Attack
Chance to wrap on Charge
2/099.67%95.20%
2/1,3/095.89%77.96%
2/2,3/1,4/079.77%35.61%
2/3,3/2,4/1,5/050.51%8.42%
Weighted Average:64.42%23.67%

What he’s good at is damage. Spigot does 1.65 damage per swing on average and 3.26 on average for a charge. Overall he does about 6.5 damage for 4 influence in attacks, or 6.5 damage for 4 influence if he charges. He’s a rare one that doesn’t lose damage by charging his target instead of walking up and attacking. The damage he does is not outstanding, but that is at base stats, with an opponent that is standing. I’ve faced Brewers enough to know that the target of an attack won’t be standing that often. Before I talk about that, here’s the full table of base damage values Spigot produces:

Defense
Attack Damage
Charge Damage
2/03.205.68
2/1,3/02.474.77
2/2,3/1,4/01.903.82
2/3,3/2,4/1,5/01.362.69
Weighted Average:1.653.26

Having someone knocked down for him to attack gives him an extra +2 to TAC, thanks to Floored. This is how you are going to want his target. It increases his damage to about 2.5 damage on average for an attack and 4 damage on average for a charge. He can now do 10 damage on his four attacks or 9 damage on a charge and two attacks. The damage is looking better, but still not where we really want it because it’s not taking out models in one activation. That would be great! Here is the complete table for damage if he’s attacking a knocked down model:

Defense
Attack Damage
Charge Damage
2/04.567.06
2/1,3/03.745.89
2/2,3/1,4/02.814.74
2/3,3/2,4/1,5/01.993.41
Weighted Average:2.434.09

Let’s take a little break from the damage output to discuss Spigot having to knock down his own target. It is so important for Spigot’s output that the model he’s attacking be knocked down that if his target isn’t already knocked down, he’s going to have to do it himself. Spigot is really bad at knocking models down if their defenses add up to 5. He isn’t even that good at knocking down defense “4” models, only getting the knockdown about 50% of the time. He is good at knocking down models when he charges. So if he absolutely needs to knockdown a defense “5” model then charge in and hope it’s not the 1/4 times he doesn’t do it. What I’m saying is he really wants someone else to knock the model down first before he goes in. Good thing the brewers do have models that are good at knocking people down. Here’s the full table for the chance to knock down models:

Defense/Armor
Chance on Attack
Chance on Charge
2/096.45%99.99%
2/1,3/079.60%99.52%
2/2,3/1,4/046.70%94.69%
2/3,3/2,4/1,5/018.34%72.61%
Weighted Average:33.34%82.49%

Like I said in the Tapper article, Tapper is really good at making sure every model in his melee range is knocked down, so he’s the main man for turning Spigot on (why do I feel like that sentence turned into a Fan Fiction written by Flint?). So if Tapper is running around with Spigot, let’s see what Spigot can do with commanding aura around. His regular damage goes up to 3 and charge to 5.25 (averages) for a total of 12 damage with 4 attacks and 11.25 damage if he has to charge to get there. It’s even better if he’s going in on a knocked down model, he then does 4 damage on an attack and 6.3 damage for a charge. With his full stack of 4 influence he can do 16 damage on 4 attacks, or 14.3 damage with a charge and two attacks. Now this is the average for all the models in the game, if you want to figure out for a particular character, use the tables below. The first table is damage against a model standing and the second is against a model with those stats after they are knocked down. As an example, if you want to figure out how much damage Spigot does against a knocked down Fillet, look at the second table for her stats now (4/0) and see that he does 4.78 damage per hit, then multiply that by the 4 attacks and you get that he does right over 19 damage to her, on average. Then you might notice that Fillet only has 14 health and is probably dead. Here are those tables:

Non Knocked Down

Defense
Attack Damage
Charge Damage
2/05.758.89
2/1,3/04.437.38
2/2,3/1,4/03.396.05
2/3,3/2,4/1,5/02.594.40
Weighted Average:3.035.23

Knocked Down

Defense
Attack Damage
Charge Damage
2/07.0310.50
2/1,3/06.078.97
2/2,3/1,4/04.787.29
2/3,3/2,4/1,5/03.435.36
Weighted Average:4.126.34

Now it’s time to talk about tooled up. I believe from my experiences with tooled up that using an activation to put tooled up on a model is generally a mistake. Outside of first turn, you do not have the luxury of wasting activations. If you are going to try to attack a model, you need to do that before your opponent keeps you from doing it. It also has not been beneficial for a model with tooled up to put it on themselves before attacking. Usually the damage you lose out on from tooling yourself up instead of attack isn’t made up for from extra damage on the other attacks. For example. If your attack would do 3 damage to a model, and you tool up instead, you need to make at least 3, preferably more, attacks after tooled up to make up for that damage. Spigot is a bit different in this regard. If he is not attacking a knocked down model, tooled up can help, if you are not planning to, or able to, knock that model down with Spigot. Tooled up can do a lot for Spigot against knocked down models as well. Because his playbook is so short, and he wraps more often because of it, you get double duty out of tooled up because it adds to both damage results. With Commanding Aura and a knocked down opponent this makes him do 16 damage in 3 attacks after tooling up, the same amount of damage he does from 4 attacks without tooled up. In fact, the damage output I’ve calculated with and without tooled up looks the same with only slight differences between them. It makes each attack seem much better though since he’s now attacking for 5.4 damage per hit. Anything less than a full stack of influence, though, and tooled up losses out. Here is the full table of results for a knocked down opponent, with commanding aura, and tooled up, just because this is his best damage output per swing:

Defense
Attack Damage
Charge Damage
2/09.0013.38
2/1,3/07.8711.47
2/2,3/1,4/06.239.36
2/3,3/2,4/1,5/04.536.94
Weighted Average:5.408.17

Now, another important part of the game is momentum. Choosing damage results doesn’t get Spigot much momentum. Against a knocked down model he generates .39 momentum per swing, so in three swings he should generate a momentum. If the model is not knocked down he generates .1 momentum. On average it will take 10 swings against the models in the game he’ll make one momentum. This is, of course, if he’s picking damage results, if you want to tackle, knock down, or push he’ll be generating more momentum than that. On a total activation, 4 influence, Spigot makes 1.5 momentum for 4 attacks, or 1.7 momentum for a charge and 2 attacks against a knocked down opponent. Better than Hooper, but not as good as any butcher. Here’s a full table of expected momentum against knocked down and non-knocked down models:

Defense
Attack vs KD
Attack
Charge vs. KD
Charge
2/00.980.801.901.54
2/1,3/00.860.441.581.14
2/2,3/1,4/00.560.141.160.85
2/3,3/2,4/1,5/00.220.030.720.48
Weighted Average:0.390.100.950.67

Let’s compare him to other, similar models in faction: Pint Pot and Hooper. I’m going to use 3 influence/attacks on each of them because that’s what Hooper is limited to, so it is easy to compare between models. I am also going to assume the knocked down condition is on the model they are attacking because 2 out of 3 models we are looking at have bonuses with that and you’ll want the opponent knocked down in Brewers anyway.

With those stated conditions, Spigot does 7.3 damage and 1.2 momentum for those three attacks. Hooper does 10.4 damage and .5 momentum with the same. Pint Pot does 4.6 damage and makes 2.3 momentum. The more damage the player does, the less momentum they generate doing that damage for these models. Hooper is the best at putting on damage, but probably doesn’t make a momentum on his turn (unless it’s from killing a model), and Pint Pot, on the other end, generates a lot more momentum for less damage. He doesn’t have to worry about crowding out either, and is very influence efficient with those beer tokens. Spigot is right in the middle for both, but can do double duty by being really good with the ball. It’s looking like Steamforged has done a good job of realizing Matt Hart’s ideal of having models have various strengths and weaknesses so that it’s hard to choose the models for your team. I like Spigot’s versatility. I like Pint Pot’s efficiency and general Butchery-ness. I like Hooper for his damage output. I don’t like Hooper’s momentum generation. I don’t like Pint Pot’s damage output as much. I can’t think of a reason not to like Spigot, which is probably why he’s my favorite player in the Brewers.

Aside: Expected Value Calculations and You

I want to first thank Alex Botts for inspiring this article and for giving me some ideas about how to improve some of my articles with new stats to look at. His ideas will really let me dig a little deeper in my analysis. If I’m ever on Double Dodge for any reason I will have only nice things to say to him during the rapid fire questions.

Today I want to talk about how I get the values for the expected damage table. I use an expected value calculation to find the expected damage, and even the percent chance of special playbook results. So lets look at what expected value calculations are first.

Calculating expected values is fairly straight forward, in theory. For every possibility you take the value of that possibility and multiply it by the probability of getting that possibility, you then add up all those values to get the expected value.

Let’s take a simple example: you have a friend that will pay you $1 if you flip a heads on a quarter. So in this set up there are 2 possibilities, heads or tails. If you flip heads you get $1, if you flip tails you get $0. The chance of getting heads or tails is 1/2 (1 in 2, or 50%). So, the calculation: probability of getting heads times the value of getting heads plus the probability of getting tails times the value of getting tails, or .5*1+.5*0=.5 or $0.50. You can expect to get $0.50 from this situation. That is not to say that you will get $0.50, that’s not even possible in this situation. What it is saying is that if you did this same situation, the average of the money you will get is $0.50.

It gets more complicated when you are doing things like rolling multiple dice and picking results from a table. So let’s look at an example that has to do with guild ball. Let’s say you have a one die character play against a model with 5 defense. A straight up probability calculation would say that 2 out of 6 results would be a success, or succeed 1/3 of the time. Because their are only two results (hit or not) it is easy to calculate this way, but lets check it with the expected value. We need to take the possibilities (each die side) and find the probability of each along with the value. I’ll call the die not getting a 5 or greater 0 (a failure) and getting a 5 or greater 1 (a success). From 1 to 6, the calculation goes: 1/6*0+1/6*0+1/6*0+1/6*0+1/6*1+1/6*1 which reduces to 1/6+1/6=2/6=1/3. So the same result. In this example this is not easier than doing a straight up probability calculation, but with how the playbooks work, this is the best way to get an average for damage.

The damage varies as we go up the playbook, and the dice probabilities for each result are harder to calculate. Let’s take getting one hit against a player with 4 defense with a player with 6 TAC and 1 damage on the first column as an example of part of a problem. To get exactly one result, 1 of the 6 dice rolled has to be a 4 of higher. The probability of getting 4 or better is 1/2, but we have to multiply that by the probability of all the rest of the dice getting below 4, 1/2 each for a total of (1/2)^5 or 1/32. Those two numbers multiplied together give us 1/64, but we aren’t even done with the probability yet. We then have to multiply that results by the combinations of getting that one die. In this problem there are 6 different combinations for that one die to be 4 or greater, each of the different dice. So now we are at 1/64*6, but we have yet to multiply it by the value of this, which is the 1 damage we will do. Now you have 1/64*6*1 or 3/32. That is just the 1 die hits results, we would then have to calculate value for 2 dice hitting, 3 dice hitting and so forth up to 6. With different numbers of combinations for that result (for example, 2 dice hitting would have 15 different combinations of dice getting hits). After calculating all that we would then need to add it up to get the final expected value. Then I have to factor in armor when that applies, but that is just an adjustment in what their playbooks look like. In this example I would create a new “column” in front of the playbook with 0 damage before calculating. It makes sure that 1 successful die is always ignored, mathematically.

Lucky for me, technology can help. I use excel to do my calculations. I have created formulas that do the combinations calculation (there is a function for that) and multiplies it by the probability of each damage result and the damage it would do there and adds it all up for me. I even use it to figure out the probability of getting something like a Knock Down from the playbook, or triggering a character play, by assigning 1 to any number of hits that I could pick it and 0 to any results too low. Because I have this set up already I can easily look at different things by changing the values of the playbook. One thing I’ll be doing along with the damage results is looking at the momentum you get from picking damage results. That should help compare people on more than just the level of how much damage they can do.

After figuring out the expected damage for each defense/armor combo in the game I do a weighted average of those values for similar defense/armor groups. Like 2/3,3/2,4/1, and 5/0 all have similar expected damage because 1 defense and 1 armor are close enough in probabilities to simplify this so their are fewer numbers to look at when I make my tables.

Full example: Brisket (poster girl of Guild Ball) attacks an enemy model with 5 defense and no armor. Her playbook damage potential is 1,2,2,2 and she has 4 TAC. I’m going to use the google sheets syntax for the formula. combin(a,b) is a function for finding the combination of b objects out of a total objects (order not mattering for the b objects). So, for this problem, combin(4,2) is the number of different ways we can get 2 success out of 4 dice. Here is the formula:

combin(4,0)*(1/3)^0*(2/3)^4*0+combin(4,1)*(1/3)^1*(2/3)^3*1+combin(4,2)*(1/3)^2*(2/3)^2*2+combin(4,3)*(1/3)^3*(2/3)^1*2+combin(4,4)*(1/3)^4*(2/3)^0*2

In each of those terms it is the combination of 4 dice with the number of success (0 in the first term) times the probability of getting a success (1/3) raised to the number of success (0 in the first term) times the probability of getting a failure (2/3) raised to the number of failures (4 in the first term), this all gives the probability -or chance- of getting that number of successes, times the damage with that many successes. In this case the expected damage is 1.21 damage.

Chapter 24: Something, Something, Something… Hooper.

Some people say that Hooper takes a lot of set up. I recently heard on one of the podcasts someone go through what they do to set up Hooper, and how awesome he is when he gets to do all that to set him up. This person also mentioned that he never gets to do all that set up before it’s ruined by the opponent. (I honestly don’t remember who this was, but it could have been Pat V from Strictly the Worse.) I believe the set up was something like this: Tapper knocks down players and puts up commanding aura (or Esters knocks down players and puts +1 damage on Hooper), Spigot tools up Hooper, maybe Friday dirty knives the target, and then Hooper goes in and destroys the model. Even without Friday in there (not sure she was mentioned), that’s two models before him, giving the opponent two chances to do something about Hooper before he does anything back. I am going to say this now, and repeat it when I talk about Spigot, but Tooled Up is a trap. In this case the trap is that you spend an entire activation before Hooper goes to tool him up, making it obvious that Hooper would be going in before he even gets a chance. In the example above, it is enough for Hooper to go right after Tapper. He still does plenty of damage without Tooled Up and that gives your opponent less time to do anything about your plan.

Now let’s talk about Hooper’s math. First is damage potential. Without any buffs, except True Grit, you can expect to do 2 damage more often than not on a regular attack, and 3 on a charge. Like most players, it’s better to make two attacks than a charge if you are just looking to do damage. If the target is knocked down, find it’s new defense on the chart and add one (or look further down for an approximation), mostly 3 damage per swing, which is pretty good damage for this game. Here’s the full table of values:

Defense
Attack Damage
Charge Damage
2/03.855.54
2/1,3/02.914.80
2/2,3/1,4/02.263.95
2/3,3/2,4/1,5/01.782.80
Weighted Average:2.043.37

True Grit is vital for Hooper. Without it he just doesn’t do much. I have included True Grit above and will continue to include it in the other tables as I talk about him, because not having True Grit on Hooper makes him kind of bad. Here is the normal damage he produces without True Grit:

Defense
Attack Damage
Charge Damage
2/02.404.76
2/1,3/02.034.07
2/2,3/1,4/01.773.10
2/3,3/2,4/1,5/01.332.22
Weighted Average:1.542.68

If you are playing Tapper, you are going to set up Commanding Aura before your other players go in to beat face. Under commanding aura, Hooper can expect to do 3 damage on average to “5” defense models (not just most of the time, and including True Grit again) on each attack. Like I said before, that’s pretty good damage. This is also approximately what he’ll do to knocked down models, or only Ester’s damage buff.

Defense
Attack Damage
Charge Damage
2/06.308.54
2/1,3/05.067.22
2/2,3/1,4/03.826.09
2/3,3/2,4/1,5/02.984.46
Weighted Average:3.455.26

Now comes the fun part: With only Tapper going first (and why wouldn’t he be going first), this is what Hooper can do to a knocked down model if he can get in the commanding aura range: 5 Damage on average to the models that normally have “5” defense (if you take into account the defense modifier for knocked down). For these models that is a big swing. The higher the defense a model has the smaller the health pool is, in general. A note about this table: I have still included the “5” defense line on this table (doing 4 damage), but that’s not counting the defense modifier. This is the amount of damage Hooper would be doing against something like a +1 Defense (6 total) Fillet, the knockdown would put her on the 5/0 line of this table. Normal Fillet with her 5/0 defense would be knocked down to 4/0 defenses and you would need to look at that line. Or, in other words, you have to take into account the defensive penalty from Knocked Down before looking at the table. That disclaimer out of the way, here is the complete table:

Defense
Attack Damage
Charge Damage
2/08.1710.92
2/1,3/06.589.26
2/2,3/1,4/05.007.87
2/3,3/2,4/1,5/03.985.82
Weighted Average:4.566.83

5 damage a swing is a lot (and that’s against the hardest targets to hurt). It’s certainly better than Tapper or Pint Pot in the same situation, by 2 damage. In fact, it’s more than Boiler does per swing with the dog assisting by the same amount, 2 damage (Ox’s owner aura bring Boiler back up to Hooper levels if he has that available), and Boiler is known to put the damage out. And with tough hide helping keep Hooper around, he might live to put the hurt on more than one enemy.

The last thing I will talk about Hooper is his chance of getting a knockdown. This is something Brewers are known for doing, and also something Hooper very much wants out of an enemy, to be knocked down. This is where the importance of Tapper or some other model with a low knock down comes in, because Hooper is that good at it. The models he seems to kill best, the “5” defense models, he only has a 1 in 3 chance of knocking down. That’s not odds I like, so it’s best if someone else does the knocking down. Here is the complete table:

Defense/Armor
Chance on Attack
Chance on Charge
2/099.13%100.00%
2/1,3/091.61%99.80%
2/2,3/1,4/067.83%97.18%
2/3,3/2,4/1,5/033.70%80.41%
Weighted Average:50.35%87.83%

Hooper would like some set up, but I think people are dong too much. If Tapper can go to knock down and commanding aura, that is plenty for Hooper to do anything he wants. Even just knocking down or commanding aura will be enough for Hooper to do a lot. Quite giving our opponents time to counter you before going in.
_________________________________________________________________________________
Now let’s talk about momentum generation. Hooper generates .17 momentum from momentum results for attacks on average (so he almost never makes momentum on an attack) and he generates .66 momentum on a charge (so he generates a momentum on 2/3 charges). So, his momentum generation is terrible. Here is the full table so you can look at specific defense/arm combonations:

Defense
Attack
Charge
2/00.901.43
2/1,3/00.611.08
2/2,3/1,4/00.250.85
2/3,3/2,4/1,5/00.060.47
Weighted Average:0.170.66

Now onto his total activation. With three influence he can attack a knocked down model three times for 10.5 damage and maybe an influence (about half the time). If he has to charge to get there he’s doing about 7.75 damage and getting 1 momentum most of the time (85% of the time). To compare: Pint pot does 6 less damage and generates 2 more momentum in those same three attacks. Hooper trades momentum generation for extra damage. In an ideal world he would do a lot of damage and make momentum, but Guild Ball, maybe more than the other games I’ve played, is about give and take. As Matt Hart is fond of reminding us, he wants the players to come with interesting choices based on weaknesses as well as strengths. Hooper has two main weaknesses: he’s slow and he doesn’t generate much (if any) momentum while doing the thing he’s good at, doing damage. So for Hooper you get survivability and damage at the cost of momentum and speed (his speed is comparable to other brewers at least).